Rebuttal: Do You Really Believe So Jim?

I was sent a link to this article by Jim Karger titled “When they come for your guns… you will turn them over” and I felt bound to reply.  Jim is a lawyer living in Mexico and probably has little to no contact with the real population of the nation and almost assuredly has never met an Oathkeeper, III%’er, Patriot, and probably has little contact with Veterans.  Take the time to read the article.  This is my open rebuttal to Jim’s article.

“Jim after reading your article you miss the 500 lb. gorilla in the room.  Those vehicles may roll down the street, and the powers that be may try to take our arms.  But ya know what?  There’s a couple of million plus of us.  And conveniently distributed among those millions in growing numbers are something that every Law Enforcement Officer is scared shitless of – a determined individual that believes in the Constitution.  Make no mistake – once the government decides that the Second Amendment is no longer valid the vast majority of firearms owners believe the government will no longer stop at anything to subjugate them.  We vastly outnumber the combined total of all Law Enforcement Officers.  We know where they live, where they shop for their groceries, etc.  For them such an action would be like fighting an insurgency in Iraq or Afghanistan without the protection of COBs or FOBs.

You also make the assumption that troops will blindly obey orders to kick down Americans doors and seize their arms by force.  Let a career soldier clue you in on something:  If the situation like you depict had ever arose and a senior Officer had ever given the order to open fire on or disarm Americans in their homeland (even in the face of the insurrection Act being invoked) I would have had my troops take his sidearm and relieved him. If he resisted I would have put a bullet in his face.  Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines aren’t stupid robots and they’re not going to blindly follow orders.  You can make the argument “But they do it in Iraq/Afghanistan/etc!”.  Yeah they do and that’s not America amigo.  What those troops would be asked to do is enforce the will of government on their own – possibly violently.  Guess what?  Not going to happen.  What it would accomplish is creating the conditions favorable for mass desertions and possibly even a coup.  I’ve known quite a few high ranking Officers in my days (and still do) that truly believe the military has the duty to “Support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic“. You want to see something spectacular?  Give an unconstitutional order like the type required to execute the goals you have stated to one of my long time associates (currently a Brigade Commander) with whom I’ve had a conversation on this topic.  He’s going to smile and then turn around and point the might of that Brigade straight at you while telling his troops something akin to “We have a duty to support and defend the Constitution and the orders we have been given are unconstitutional”.  I’ll guarantee you almost to the man every troop under him is going to follow that lead because it’s legally and morally correct and it sparks a reminder for them of the oath they took when they signed up.  Senior Officers aren’t stupid amigo and they know given the probability of their troops not following or even actively resisting an order they’re not going to even try it.  Think about it:  You want Sergeant Jones to take his squad into action after a couple of his guys brothers, cousins, fathers, etc. have been shot, killed, or arrested by forces doing the same thing the government wants them to do?  At best all you can really hope for is that they’ll sit it out and then I wouldn’t count on it.

That brings me to another point that you have sorely overlooked.  You see Jim some people spend the majority of their adult life in the military.  Some get out after a few years.  Some spend their entire careers training and honing the skills to fight and have actual experience that has honed those skills.  That population includes not only regular troops but special operations veterans as well.  A conservative estimate would be there’s thousands that still take their oaths seriously – and among them is a large percentage of experts capable of training an insurgency unlike anything ever seen on the planet.  Bring all of the technology you want – helos, armor, drones, it doesn’t matter.  Guys like me are all over the population and have the skills and experience to interdict those systems.  Are we the threat?  Nope – the people we’re going to train would be.  You can scream “That’s illegal!” and yeah it is.  But you would have already made us all criminals by implementing an unconstitutional law.  Some men (and women) so strongly believe in freedom and liberty that they will resist.  And given that the atrocities you would have to execute to reach the goal of complete disarmament would make those numbers consistently grow.  It’s all Insurgency 101.

Jim there’s yet another thing you fail to consider : a little thing called a Rubicon.  And it’s not just neo-con as your article implies.  Ever notice how when the government starts beating up the First Amendment almost every sector of the public gets outraged? There’s millions of firearm owners in this country and granted a portion of them would sheepishly hand their firearms in.  But just as in Australia the majority wouldn’t.  You’ve failed to realize firearms ownership isn’t a partisan topic.  It isn’t conservative, it isn’t liberal, it isn’t even libertarian.  It’s American.  I have the great fortune to have a fairly large circle of good friends that are firearms enthusiasts.  Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Straight, Gay, Atheists, Christian, male, female, it doesn’t matter.   The topic of what your article implies has invariably come up and we always address it the same way:  “You can have OUR guns when you pry them from OUR cold dead hands” because we realize there is strength in unity.

In closing I offer this – we are not a threat until the government makes us so. So continue to sit in retirement in Mexico amigo comfortable in the fact that there are a LOT of us that ain’t playing that ballgame.  We didn’t take an oath and serve our nation for nothing.

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About Treaded

Semi-retired career and contract troop. I own and maintain my own small ranch out here in beautiful rural America.
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61 Responses to Rebuttal: Do You Really Believe So Jim?

  1. Rich T says:

    And the crowd goes wild

  2. Just an ol' chicken farmer says:

    Excellent post! I would submit this in addendum: One of the main reasons why our military is so fearsome, is because of how well supplied they are, logistics are important, and nobody does it better than Americans. Our troops have an endless supply of ammo, food, medical care etc. But it is the civilians who are the source of that supply, the taxpayer’s dollars, food from the farmers, armament and spare parts and ammunition from the hardworking folks in factories. And what does Mr. Karger think is going to happen to those supply lines when some tyrant begins to attack We the People? Does he think all Americans are just going to continue blithely doing their jobs while their friends and neighbors and communities are being savaged? Rebellion takes many forms, it can be as simple as throwing a monkey-wrench into the machine…..

    I would also submit, that Mr. Karger should possibly read the papers, there have been quite a number of rebellions against tyranny in the world in the last couple of years, and so far, the world community has not been on the side of the despot, just ask Mr. Khadafy…oh wait….that might present some difficulty 😉

    • No such thing as “We the People” anymore. Half the population sponges off the other half and intends to keep doing same. Many of us will freeze and hand over the weapons, many will not; some Regime enforcers will do what they are told, others will not. It’ll be bloody and sustained: I’m thinking Spanish Civil War, Tai’ping Uprising, something like that.

      • Just an ol' chicken farmer says:

        Well I see your point, but here’s a short quote, that spells out better than I could what i’m getting at, this is from ol’ Remus at the woodpile report:

        “……Unlike partisan derring-do so beloved of novelists, widely dispersed sabotage and tactical hit and run means the regime may deploy massive firepower but have no target remotely worthy of it. As a business model it’s a loser. Worse, the regime can never be sure who is or isn’t working for the other side. Who better to take down a communications net than an anonymous laborer in the electronic vineyards, for instance? Eventually there would be no permanent distribution hubs, field headquarters, marshalling yards or anything else dependent on power transmission nodes and water mains. When the field of battle is everywhere, it means never knowing if a supply convoy will reach its intended destination, or if a real-time situation map is displaying fanciful information, or if the second shift at a maintenance depot is dumping sugar into the fuel tanks….”

        Like I said, rebellion takes many forms, to quote Tyler Durden from Fight Club:

        “Look, the people you are after are the people you depend on: we cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances, we guard you while you sleep. Do not fuck with us.”

        An army is only as good as it’s supply lines.

  3. big d says:

    Me and my wife have talked this subject over. And there will be know disarming in my house. what should scare the piss out of the statists is neither of us is ex military or law enforcement. Were just plan old people and we will fight to the death to support liberty. My oath to freedom is between me my wife and god. The only two people I answer to. I love peace like the next man. But I will not back down from a fight. Besides we have a moral obligation to the next generation to protect there freedom.

  4. 55six says:

    Bravo !

  5. Shrugger says:

    Treaded, I have always believed without any real insight to back it up that American soldiers would not attack American citizens even if such orders were given. It is very reassuring to have someone with your direct experience reinforce that hope. And I wonder if you agree with me that no military force has ever occupied a more dangerous place than what this country would become if people with nothing more to lose are animated–by the millions–to regain freshly stolen liberties.

    • Treaded says:

      Ohh don’t be mistaken there are those lapdogs that grew up in Wesley Clarke’s shadow (Petraeus is an example). And they are still in positions of authority and would blindly try and follow orders. IMHO looking at the current Commands I would bet right off the start between 3 and 4 divisions worth would be out of the picture. The National Guard is a even bigger story. It’s a big reach to have them execute that kind of crap on their own soil against citizens probably of their own state. Bottom line is an American Insurgency would be way more than they could handle. If you took the entire DoD, DoJ, DHS, and combined Law Enforcement agencies in this country it still numbers less than 3 1/2 million. And they have one huge Achilles heel – they have become utterly dependent on their technology. You take that tech away and they become impotent – hell I watched a Bird throw his coffee cup across his toc because none of his Ravens were working, he was low on fuel, and didn’t have enough tires to keep his MRAPS, ASVs, or uparmoreds on the road. Given those constraints his ability to control his battlespace shrank to less than 25% of what it would have normally have been. You know what did that? Less than a dozen insurgents targeting his logistics convoys over the period of one week.

  6. A says:

    While I’d like to agree with this article, gun confiscation did occur after Hurricane Katrina and there were no defensive measures taken. One caller to a popular talk show shared stories of how he participated in the midnight raids when he was an ignorant 20-something year old man. There’ plenty of ignorant kids like him that don’t understand the value of the Constitution… and if not, there’s always foreign soldiers that could be brought in as it states in the recent UN Arms Trade Treaty.

    There’s many petitions being circulated to ban weapons, and there needs to be more pro 2nd amendment petitions to counter like this one: http://www.change.org/petitions/the-president-of-the-united-states-protect-the-right-to-bear-arms-2nd-amendment

    • Desert Lion says:

      You are correct – such confiscations did indeed happen after Hurricane Katrina. That was a turning point for many gun owners. It was the first time that what we had always recognized was possible the the anti-gun crowd said was never going to happen became actual. I also have 20+ years in the military and had believed such confiscations would not happen, but that I would not comply. That theory had never even needed to be seriously considered before Katrina since it had not happened in recent memory.

      Everything changed in 2005.

      Even though it took only four days (in a destroyed New Orleans) to get a Federal judge to declare the order unconstitutional and invalid, there were thousands of guns confiscated. Few were ever returned. Some were simply dumped over the side of boats into the river. There were several reports that some of the better and more valuable firearms were stolen by corrupt personnel, but to my knowledge none were ever prosecuted.

      When the reports started coming out, I had a serious discussion with my spouse. At first, there was resistance to the idea of refusing to comply with any such order should one occur in our area. Two main points made it impossible for me to choose otherwise – first, I took that same oath and cannot be released from it, so complying with an order that violates the Constitution simply will not be considered. Second, the liberty of future generations, especially my future generations, depend on what we do during adversity when freedom is threatened. I am not asking my spouse to stand with me; in fact, I hope she takes her own vehicle and bugs out with my daughters and their families. If I can, I will follow. If not, they need to carry the flag and story to future generations, knowing I did everything I could to ensure those generations actually have a future. It is not a comfortable scenario to contemplate, but it is the only one I can live with if what was described actually occurs.

      My preference is to ensure that we never get to the point where that scenario is even a remote possibility. It is part of why I joined Oathkeepers, to help ensure that all others who took that same oath recognize their duty and will uphold it. That includes military and law enforcement.

      We have a lot of work to do. The next major milestone is November 6. Be there.

      Elections Have Consequences – Vote Wisely!

      • This did not happen next door in Mississippi. We wanted the population armed and able to defend themselves and their property. It as impossible after Katrina came through to get to the rural areas on the coast due to all the power lines, trees and other debris blocking every access into theses areas. As a cop who volunteered to go to the coast from a 100 miles north of Gulfport. There was a curfew imposed where I was working out of Other than the Looters there was no “innocents” arrested in my area(Pass Christian, DiamondHead,) There was a Tent city jail set up on the beach. We conducted house to house searches during the day, and had to patrol at night with the NG It was fucked up when we would enter search the residence and find an 70’ish year old couple in there attic dead from drowning , and an axe still in the roof were he was trying to cut through it but could not because he had a metal roof.
        Our Gov, at the time Haley Barbour, refused to and with the support of MHP, the County Sheriffs (on the coast) and The General of the MS NG to take or even discuss the taking of privately owned weapons. When we finally started making it into the rural a
        areas. Everyone that I came into contact with was armed and polite. There was no of the savagery displayed as there was in NO. and my area was ground zero when that bitch hit.
        It was also said by Gov. Barbour, you can see it on you tube, that Looter would be dealt with harshly.
        Now I work an an extremely “Red” county consistently 70% Republican and upwards of 50% voter turn out on elections. Ive been on man hunts as recently as yesterday where I have seen (Esp. the ‘Ol folk) standing outside there homes with shotguns in hand. That brings a smile to my face. We as cops have discussed at length, and supported by our change of command that we would never disarm the public. I want the public to have my “six” and I strive everyday to not lose there trust. I am fortunate that I
        live and work in a county that his a very high respect for law enforcement, and I do not take that for granted. There are those of us who are out there that still believe in the Constitution and what this great nation stands for.

        pride in what I do.

  7. Bob Harris says:

    I want to agree and I am not sure where I sit on this. For one, I feel similarly that with the rest of our Rights being redacted by corrupt action why hasn’t there been any outrage? Secondly, the government has a history of changing the definition of what are lawful orders. Remember them kicking down doors and confiscating in New Orleans? I feel that slowly and surely they will accomplish their goal of complete control – wether we give up our guns or not.

  8. Carl says:

    Another point to remember is that not all LEO’s are in lockstep with the government. Lots of us are veterans and take our oaths very seriously. The comment that there are lots of young kids that have been brainwashed to ignore the Constitution is correct, but generally, they do not have a warrior mindset. They may fight because they have been told to hate what is in front of them. We don’t fight because we hate those in front of us, but because we love those behind us. The battle in front of us is never as strong as the power behind us. Ps. 144:1 Praise the LORD, who is my rock. He trains my hands for war and gives my fingers skill for battle.

  9. Teresa Sue says:

    Good post.
    Miss Violet

  10. Glenn Allen says:

    I’d like to point out that the military has used deadly force several times against American citizens, The Ludlow massacre-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre, Kent State-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings, The Battle of Blair Mountain-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain, and there are others like the Mormon war.not to mention Waco. I wouldn’t count on it going so smooth.

  11. Jonni says:

    My house and mine will be ready.

  12. Marianne Chilletti says:

    I don’t see our military turning thier guns on us the American People. Sorry but they swore that oath and the majority take it seriously. No I don’t believe we will be handing over our guns at anytime. Great Post – but yours always are!!!!

  13. So the troops won’t fire on American citizens when ordered, right? So how do you explain Ruby Ridge and Waco for starters?

    • Treaded says:

      Milton – the aggressors at both Ruby Ridge and Waco were the ATF &FBI. They didn’t even have troops driving the .mil vehicles that started the fire in Waco.

      • Point well taken, but those agents swore to uphold and defend the same Constitution and they answered to the same CIC as the military, didn’t they? Would you agree, then, that they were/are not much different from Hitler’s SA, aka Brownshirts (who clashed with Hitler’s military more than once)?

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  15. Tony says:

    I always viewed the second amendment as a right to self defense when I was younger. It took the last two Presidents to help me realize the strength and intention of the second amendment to also protect us from tyranny. The oath I swore, as a young man just out of college, to support and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic means so much more to me now. The freedoms that our constitution granted must always be in existance for future generations. The Jim Karger’s of the world, as well as the statists and MSM have always underestimated the American people and especially those of us who have gone in harm’s way.
    If I was willing to die in a foreign land, why would I not be even more willing to die in my own country, protecting the freedoms of those I love?

  16. CDP says:

    Great response. There are things worse than death that can gnaw on a man, loose of liberty is at the top of my list. As Dad used to say better dead than red.

  17. Longbow says:

    Well said. I will link it.

  18. Matt Bracken says:

    Outstanding essay, and a great answer to a coward who deserted the potential battlefield for liberty, rather than fight for it. And that fool thinks he’ll be safer in MEXICO? What the hell is he smoking down there? That country can turn violently anti-gringo at any time, and he’ll be lynched. Mexico is his SHTF refuge? What a fool, to believe that he’ll be safer as a gringo hiding out in Mexico, than an American fighting for freedom in America.

    • Treaded says:

      Brother Bracken you’re absolutely right. HH6 has some relatives in Puebla and a few years back we went down to visit – hell I felt like I was the only white guy walking down the street in Lebanon.
      Those “American retirement enclaves” in Mexico are going to be the first to get picked cleaner than one of Saddam’s palaces after SHTF.

    • Jackson says:

      And another thing: I’ve been robbed by the police in Mexico on a trip before. We are wondering about our police, but you read stuff like what was posted above by the fellow from Mississippi and you realize that a lot of our police have their heads screwed on straight. In Mexico the police are just another drug gang. And everyone knows it.

      And of course what about your right to keep and bear arms in Mexico? Almost non-existant for the general population, less so for a gringo on renewable six month leases.

      I’ve often said to friends that “I’ll go back to Mexico on vacation – when I can fallow a platoon of the US Army and take my FN-FAL with me.

      You can’t own an FN in Mexico.

      PS: Same goes for Fred Reed. He’s boring now that he’s checked out of the USA and spends his time bragging about how nice Mexico is. Give me a break!

    • Just an ol chicken farmer says:

      True dat. Living in their own little world down there in San Miguel, untouched as yet because (as Mr. Karger neglects to mention) they pay their bribes regularly. The second the SHTF and they can’t access their dinero anymore? Yeah, they’ll be found hanging from an overpass. And no way to defend against it as they already cowed down to their masters and gave up their guns. And in the end, that’s what articles like Mr. Kargers are about, quivering little chihuahuas with their tails between their legs, still trying to convince THEMSELVES, that submission was the only way. Rough way to die that, i’ll take a bullet any day over being hacked to bits slowly with machetes.

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  20. Ragnar says:

    In reviewing his article, you should also take into account Mr. Karger’s profession. And here I am not dissing lawyers. His profession required him to accept losing and stay with the system. He is mentally conditioned to know that injustice will occur and to still keep playing the game. People like that will tend to look at the power of the other side and accept that they are too weak to do anything bout it outside of the rules it created. If you look at any major city, the gangs outnumber the police. But as of now, they do not believe they can confront the police directly, so they normally don’t. But there are any number of cities around the world in which the gangs control neighborhoods and police if they go into the neighborhoods at all, are bystanders. Conditioning beliefs is the key to control.

    As to whether the American military will fire on Americans, some won’t but I would bet most will. On this point, history is on my side not yours. From the very beginning the American military has been involved in actions against civilians, eg. the Whiskey rebellion, the civil war draft riots, “The Burning”, the unconstitutional (I don’t care that the court said it was ok, it violated the 6th and probably 5th amendments.) internment of Japanese-Americans in World War II, the Watts riot, the Branch Davidians in Waco. I would like you to prove me wrong because I hope that you are right, so feel free to list the times the military has refused, refused not questioned, orders to be involved in actions against civilians. If orders are given to fire on civilians to preserve the power of the politicians, most would not fire, but the orders will be given to restore order by ending riots that are burning down the cities, or to arrest domestic terrorists who want kill police and create anarchy. Most will obey those orders and when they are fired upon, they will fire back.

    As to former military being the most dangerous opposition to the police state, I don’t think that anyone could disagree. Of course, that is why returning vets are being labeled as potential domestic terrorists by DHS. The conditioning of young police officers and a willingly gullible public has begun.

  21. Redleg says:

    The Dollar Vigilante is closing ranks against those of us who disagreed with Karger’s defeatism, here’s their rebuttal to us:

    http://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2012/8/1/ready-aim-submit-why-they-will-take-your-guns-from-your-cold.html

    • Treaded says:

      It reads like a cointelpro script, and it’s followed by a lot of namecalling etc. et. al. Typical “progressive” (and by progressive I mean straight out fucking collective socialist) response pattern. Ignore them, we won this round. Next.

  22. Someone needs to put hands on Mr. Karger, in a most serious manner, wrestle him to the ground and then, very politely, ask him how he feels about it.

    Think he’d get the picture?

    Me neither.

  23. HABCAN says:

    A WARNING:

    Once, in my Youth, with my adult Life yet before me, I went to War to preserve the Rights of Others in Another Country.

    Think you not that Now, approaching the End of that Life, I would not go again to War to preserve those selfsame Rights in My Own Country?

    HABCAN
    III

  24. Rurik says:

    Not saying anything or admitting anything, but keep in mind the concept of the drop gun. I just wonder if when They come for the guns, some moke might smile and meekly turn in something … while keeping back (and deep out of sight) something else along with a swollen sense of resentment. Remember what you own that is “on paper” and what may be a free range weapon.

    • Q. Fabius Pictor says:

      All of this was discussed over a decade ago in “The Resister”. Go dig your old issues out of the garage and re-read them. Nothing important has changed since then.

      Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel, read and heed Mountain Guerrilla.

      • Redleg says:

        Anyone know where to find old copies? I have been wanting to read it but I haven’t met any success in finding any copies either online or in print. The funny thing is that when they were being published back in the day I was serving in the 10th Mountain and the only thing that we heard at Drum was that there were so called “extremist movements” at Ft. Bragg and we were not supposed to associate with them and then a bunch of PC training was forced on us at the time. The Army did a pretty good job at keeping the lid on everything and keeping us in the dark about everything. I would have loved to subscribe at the time if I would have known about it. My best friend was in 3rd SFG at the time but unfortunately he died in AFG in 2003 so my ability to find out more info is no longer available. Any info or links are appreciated!

  25. Joe Bagodonutz says:

    If you believe that US troops and US cops will not turn on the people, you need to consider that the .gov is training Russian troops (and in some cases Spetznaz) right here on American soil- some in Ft Irwin (?) and some (confirmed) in Pinon Canyon just outside Trinidad, CO on land controlled by Ft Carson. They’re being trained in crowd control and detainment in a series of “towns” built specifically for training purposes complete with sewers, alleys ,etc. I know several folks who’ve been there as role-playing “resistors”.

    Remember that several years ago our .gov signed treaties allowing the Canadian and Mexican forces to be used in the US in case of “emergencies”?

    Remember Obummer’s off-mike (so he thought) conversation with Putin that he (Putin) should be a little more patient with Obummer until after he is re-elected and he can then do more to “socialize” the US?

    Think the Russkies/Chicomms/other UN troops would have a problem policing the hated Amerikanskis?

    I don’t.

    The musicians are tuning up their instruments to begin the dance…

  26. Treaded says:

    Lay off the Alex Jones. Too much isn’t good for you.

  27. adparare says:

    Let me just say this with 20 yrs of military service and counting, Army and Navy:
    I will defend my country but not my government. I have sworn to uphold and defend MY Constitution. Any asshole that kicks my door in looking for weapons will not have them surrendered. Any douche-bag that sits in a third world country and lives behind his gated community walls (where the guards have guns so he doesn’t have to get his hands dirty) needs a reality check to the highest degree. Come off your high morality pedestal.

    We have the most unique country in the entire human history of the world. Ours is one of the few governments that fears it’s population, not just in the power of one person one vote but in the power of its populace to bear arms and say “no more” or “we don’t agree”. That degree of power in of itself scares the shit out of any form of government looking to dictate or oppress. We have learned as children in school about the three pillars of our democracy, judicial, legislative, and executive. Gun owners are the fourth and over looked pillar, on a three legged stool you can kick one leg out and the stool will fall. Kick a leg out on a four legged stool and it will wobble but not fall. In the past when our government has had a leg kicked out from underneath them it is the citizenry they call upon to to prop them back up.

    Every time I watch Charlton Heston’s speech at the 2000 NRA Convention I get chills and believe with all my being the words he said :
    (Source Wikipedia)
    Near the end of his remarks, Heston paused to pick up a replica of Sharps buffalo rifle and continued:
    “ So, as we set out this year to defeat the divisive forces that would take freedom away, I want to say those fighting words for everyone within the sound of my voice to hear and to heed, and especially for you, Mr. Gore: ‘From my cold, dead hands!’

    Here is the YouTube Video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ju4Gla2odw

  28. Randall Stevens says:

    Found this to be interesting: http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/full-spectrum-operations-in-the-homeland-a-%E2%80%9Cvision%E2%80%9D-of-the-future

    The article found at the above link begins by establishing the military doctrine that the US Army has recently published for future war fighters to follow during the years 2016-2028 and the goals set forth within for Army to achieve as a military organization. Namely, those goals are to deter conflict, prevail in war, and succeed in a range of contingencies at home and abroad. With the basis for the discussion well settled, the writers then set up a fictional scenario to expand on the last clause in the Army’s objectives. The scenario involves a domestic threat posed to the Republic that results in the President invoking the Insurrection Act. In turn, the Attorney General is then authorized to issue orders to the US Armed Forces, NG soldiers, Federal, State, and Local LE to organize and implement activity intended to bring about a defeat of the insurrectionists. The essay details the challenges to success the Army would face while operating at home against US citizens and the tactical strategies that likely would be followed given the fictional circumstance described above.

    I imagine that there will be people who frequent this board that may be concerned, if not somewhat unsettled, by the particular scenario that the retired Colonel and his civilian PhD sidekick lay out as a basis for US forces combat operation in COTUS. Others may experience little surprise given their familiarity with certain internal memos or policy announcements by DHS that identify as potential threats various groups of law abiding citizens whose ideological leanings run counter to the present agenda of the WH. Sadly, there still there will be those that don’t see a problem with scrutinizing Americans for their beliefs or in the US Armed Forces conducting combat operations at home. Either way, the essay is some what of a long read by the standards of most visitors to the board but worth the effort in my opinion for those that are interested in the topic of discussion. YMMV, of course. By the way, retired Colonel Benson is presently a consultant to Fortune 500 business and a civilian academic that is no longer the director of Army school of Advanced Military Studies.

    Those that are watching with keen interest in the various policy directives coming from the WH, DoD, and DoJ in recent years that involve federal LE or military operations at home in times of civil unrest may find this essay particularly interesting and perhaps illuminating. Especially if you are familiar with policy directives such as “Rightwing Extremism in the United States”, or its required reading counterpart, “Domestic Extremism Lexicon” published by DHS a few years ago. The 2008 assignment of NORTHCOM 3rd ID to “civil unrest and crowd control” in the US also comes to mind as a curious factoid to keep in the forefront of one’s mind while reading the story and processing the implications. Certainly the essay is thought provoking, if nothing else, but keep in mind that the writers are published by a non-profit and have no current association with the command staff of the US Armed Forces.

  29. Treaded says:

    OK, I know Kev Benson and he is a brainchild and trustee of the Wesley Clarke school of thought (he’s a died in the wool liberal progressive). I don’t know Weber but given the context of the article I assume her school of thought is along the same lines. I agree the entire article is alarming but read the pretext:
    “In May 2016 an extremist militia motivated by the goals of the “tea party” movement takes over the government of Darlington, South Carolina, occupying City Hall, disbanding the city council, and placing the mayor under house arrest”.
    That my friend is unconstitutional and illegal regardless of who conducts it. Any such scenario as Benson and Weber describe isn’t the work of Patriots but criminals and would most likely be cause for invocation of the insurrection act.
    What they fail to take into account is a basic truth – our government (and by association the upper echelons of the DoD) as as inept and incompetent at executing such a complex operation individually much less collectively that by the time they got their heads out of their collective fourth points of contact they would already be facing a nationwide insurgency.

    Personally I’m going to email Kev and beat his ass up about his choice of scenarios which is all too clearly PC. Kev doesn’t want to create an uproar by using much more likely scenarios such as the democrats vote farms rioting in the cities after Chicago Jesus is narrowly defeated in an election.

  30. Kevin says:

    Excellent response; I did not initially realize the poster was living in Mex. of all places……… talk about being separated from the realities here. Also he probably never had any military service (I’m retired US Army) with which to measure the populace.

  31. blackfedora says:

    A fascinating discussion. I sent this to about 40 folks, and they are split down the middle. those living in blue Amerika (this includes me) are primarily untrusting of LEO and military, assuming they will follow orders and slaughter their fellow citizens to the cheers of the populace. Those living in red America are more optimistic, projecting their own sense of honor on the “authorities.” My direct contact with LEOs confirms this skepticism, and with retired military also confirms. I know a retired military officer who does not believe civilians need or should be allowed to own firearms, so since he is now a civilian he refuses to provide any security protection for himself and his wife. He is not unusual in my experience in his utter trust of the “authorities” to always do the right thing to protect him.

    I live a quarter mile from the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Maryland, and believe me the scale of live fire training has increased logarithmically in the past three years. They are out all day and night throwing lead, some large caliber and a lot fully automatic.

    We truly have devolved into two tribes. the people in the wagon will delight in the eradication of those pulling the wagon, too stoopid to realize it will mean their own demise.

    blackfedora

    • Milton Richards says:

      Agree totally.

      In my opinion this debate is not much more than an academic exercise.

      I am not going to wait until the SHTF to find out whose right.

      My assumption is that if some of them MIGHT support an order to confiscate weapons, then they quite probably WILL.

      Prepare for the worst. Hope for the best.

  32. John Cooper says:

    Treaded, have you ever read this short article?

    Link to Complete Article: http://www.starvingthemonkeys.com/articles/Colonels.html

    Except below:

    When to Shoot the Colonels

    “…Not so today. In the aftermath of Katrina, armed and uniformed soldiers patrolled the streets and disarmed Americans. Some uniformed soldiers were captured on film lamenting that “I can’t believe that we’re doing this to Americans.” Yet, they did it anyway, lamentations notwithstanding. But why?…

    ,,,Besides, if some uppity colonel out there decided to start authorizing instruction about when to shoot the colonels, you can bet that pretty quick the President would no longer be pleased. Because he or she would know where that path must ultimately lead. Which is why uppity colonels don’t stay colonels for very long. Political appointees, my friends. That vision you have in your head of the noble military protecting your rights is just a dangerous fantasy. A fantasy you have to get rid of right now, before it gets you killed.

    Besides, if all of these people decide in unison to protect you, and in so doing put their own careers, freedoms and life on the line, who is going to protect them? You? And if so, how? You needed them to protect you in the first place. And if Sgt. Soandso gets shot protecting your rights, what about his family? Retribution aside, who takes care of them with him out of the picture? Worse, after Sgt. Soandso gets shot, some corporal will be there ready to pin on those chevrons. And you can bet that to that guy, you are a minor inconvenience in his day. You wouldn’t get lucky enough to get a chain of noble soldiers to protect you. When the day arrives, all of those political appointees will have scrubbed the ranks of those pesky oathkeepers anyway. Those oathkeepers who remain hidden in ranks will be in an impossible situation….

    …So if the military doesn’t exist to protect our rights and freedoms, why does it exist? The answer is simple. It exists to back our national will with force. Most of the time, that is a good thing, particularly when our national will is to not be attacked by jackasses who threaten us. But when the national will turns to taking your guns away, you will be the jackass who threatens “us.” Then the military will execute that national will with cold, unthinking and bureaucratic efficiency. And wrap itself in the flag while doing so.”

    I ask you to please read this article with an open-mind, and to please read all of it, and maybe even read it twice. Here is the link one more time: http://www.starvingthemonkeys.com/articles/Colonels.html

    • Treaded says:

      I’ve read it before and the author makes some valid points. A few of his points are in Alex Jones land (I’d love to see proof of an instance of foreign troops wearing US uniforms on American soil). The author makes the unrealistic leap into never never land when he gets to the part about NCOs shooting each other over not following orders. That in itself is such a complex issue with so many facets that the author has oversimplified but cuts to the real core of the argument. Will there be Colonels that blindly follow orders? You bet – Hell I know a few Generals that did (Wesley Clark is a lifelong cocksucker in my books). But in and by themselves they are worthless without those Sergeants and troops.

      I see a lot of articles like this written by guys that never served or guys that served a couple of generations ago. Troops aren’t the same as they were 20 years ago – hell not even ten years ago. They are smarter, more informed, and a helluva lot quicker to question anything that even comes across as a shady order. In reality land (where I live) SGT Soandso wouldn’t have been shot by his squaddies. Why? Because those guys work, live, and train together. Asking those guys to shoot SGT Soandso would be akin to asking them to shoot their own brother and 99% of them ain’t going to have it. And a good leader (either wearing stripes or bars) knows better than to even create a situation like that because what it will do is polarize his men against him and create a condition in which his leadership is suspect at every turn and as a result creates a combat ineffective unit. A more likely scenario is that SGT Soandso is arrested. But even then the resentment created by that action is going to have sever repercussions within the unit. If you don’t take my word for it please feel free to ask Mosby, SFMedic, AmMerc, or any of the other “greensuiters” or vets out there what would happen if you gave an order for troops to start shooting each other.

      One further aspect to discuss in brief. Troops don’t trust politicians. Period. The last decade and some change has created a HUGE culture of distrust in troops when it comes to politicians. Even flag and field grades are highly hesitant to hug up to them because they have seen how politicians will throw them under the bus so nonchalantly (McChrystal is a good example of this). Along with the exercise the author of that article suggests I would add one more – pull that troop in and ask him him or her what they REALLY think about the President. Those results are the tell.

      Volumes could be written (and a few have) about the psychology of troops and leadership. But in reality a lot of authors forget that soldiers come from the civilian population and the vast majority really want nothing more than to return to it one day hopefully intact.

      • John Cooper says:

        Tom Baugh, the author of that article did serve in the Marines I believe.

        Tom Baugh is an entrepreneur, inventor and professional irritant.

        A former Marine, he graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy in 1988 with a degree in Control Systems Engineering. He is a veteran of Operation Desert Storm, and holds a M.S. in Electrical Engineering from Virginia Tech earned as an Air Force Laboratory Graduate Fellow after leaving the USMC.

        While employed at McDonnell Douglas he authored patents on fractal designs and networked voice communications. He has been operating his own businesses since 1996, and has provided development tools and consulting services to thousands of clients worldwide.

        He currently lives in rural Georgia where he researches alternate energy and agribusiness technology, and develops course materials.

        He also enjoys the company of cats. You won’t ever see those pure individualists running around in packs to get something for nothing or begging for charity. Ever so clever, aren’t they?

        http://www.starvingthemonkeys.com/AboutTomBaugh.html

      • Treaded says:

        Now don’t get me wrong – I ain’t banging on Tom Baugh, hell IMHO he’s a smart and talented guy. I’m not privvy to his Corps experience so I don’t know how much time he’s had leading troops. From my perspective he makes a LOT of assumptions in his article when it comes to how enlisted guys think and would react (especially given the disparity between the late 80s/early 90s and now – hell an entire generation has gone in and retired since then) to a situation like that and their leadership. My experience tells me differently than what Tom assumes.

  33. John Cooper says:

    My hopes are that you are 100 percent correct, and that things have changed. We really need the military on the Freedom Force side, if things were ever to go really wrong.

  34. LukeIMUrFather says:

    I’m gonna have to agree with Carl on the point that not all LEOs are in lockstep.

    In my locale, the sheriff believes the State shouldn’t require a license to carry a handgun, concealed or otherwise. A great many of the LEOs hate the federal government, think we’re being oppressed. I don’t know how far they’d take it, but the people in my part of the state are cocky, and would rather die than let the FedGov take our guns because we know where gun confiscation ends.

  35. A Texan says:

    http://www.cpflorida.com/2012/07/30/possible-false-flag-obama-assasination-attempt-upcoming/

    Stay on your toes, folks. This scenario might be a paranoid fantasy, but given the friendship of Obama with Weather Underground Bill Ayres (which indicated a “need” to eliminated 25 million people – 40 years ago – in order to be secure in running the country), I don’t know what he and his minions WOULDN’T do.

    BTW, a lot of the local LEOs in my area would call in sick or outright fight the tyrants in a scenario like the one being discussed.

  36. hottrodd says:

    Sorry if this is a duplication. I typed it before and somethihg misfired.

    There are 1,300,000 licensed deer hunters in Pennsylvania alone and EVERY ONE of them has a high powered rifle. PA is a blue state! You don’t even want to know how much firepower is in the Southeast, out west and in the other red states.

    Check out this site: http://www.countysheriffproject.org/. Find out how much authority your sheriff
    has then find out where your sheriff stands and if he is aware of his power and responsibility. If he’s not on board remember it when election time comes around.

  37. SD says:

    Karger isn’t as stupid as he seems. He’s not serious. He’s simply peddling the same old fear, uncertainty and doubt in an effort to keep you reading his blog and (he hopes) buy what he’s selling.

    A suitable firearm, ammunition and training are unassailable assets to any rational person. Karger and his ilk attempt to straw-man the discussion into a simpleminded direct confrontation scenario in the hope that you’ll sell that “worthless” AR, join him in Mexico(!) and pay him the proceeds.

    Just another snake oil salesman trying to lift money out of your wallet and into his. Another con game. Don’t fall for it or waste time thinking it over too much.

  38. Goose says:

    If you really think that military personnel will not “follow orders”, abide by the oath to “serve their branch” and follow the “President”. You are sadly mistaken.
    Now, let’s take your belief that our own troops will not fire upon us with a grain of salt. Let us believe for a moment that it will never happen. I bet you God’s green earth that there are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of ill minded youths, dying to take a crack at reality Battlefield/Call of Duty/any 1st person shooter. So let’s weed out the percentage that will not follow the requirements of being an enlisted soldier. Take out those not willing to shoot their own people. Just plainly take out those that you believe will never enforce this scenario. What are you left with? With the millions of people in the US, I’m damm sure you’ll have at least a single division (15,000), if not a brigade (5,000). Now do you think that a single division or a brigade could not take on a city of 60,000? How many of those 60,000 are armed, 50%? So 30,000 ill equipped civilians with .223s and SUVs are going to stop 15,000 trained troops, with APC and air support?
    And NO! I will not accept the Vietcong rebuttal. We not VC and we can’t hide in jungle mountains. If anything the .gov IS THE VIETCONG, we are the ill equipped, ill-trained, over confident Marines WITH the lack of support.
    What you fail to realize is that we live based on an infrastructure. Take away our water, our electricity, and our grocery stores, how long do you think we would last. The first families to go would be the ones with teenagers who can’t play Nintendo; that is how dependent our society is on trivial amenities. Unfortunately our society is deeply dependent on our current infrastructure. Katrina…nuf said.
    They don’t have to march in with troops and tanks there are many ways they can disarm us.
    Here’s how:
    1) Ban manufacturing of new arms and ammunition.
    2) Outlaw shooting ranges.
    3) Wait.

    What will one do then? Horde what we have…then what?
    If they need to go further, simply reference the above mentioned; infrastructure.

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